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	<title>Comments on: &quot;What concord is there between the Academy and the Church?&quot;: My Attempt at a Christian Philosophy of History</title>
	<atom:link href="http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/</link>
	<description>A group blog about religion in America</description>
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		<title>By: Izgad</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Izgad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 17:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-33</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul
I am okay with the sort of bias that comes in topic selection. That still leaves one the ability to deal with the actual information in a professional and honest manner.

Lincoln
In terms of the examples I gave, my point was that the ideologies I outlined, as hateful as I may personally find them, are valid conclusions from the study of history. Just as science can only tell you what can be done and not what should be done, history can only tell us what people did and not what they should have done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul<br />
I am okay with the sort of bias that comes in topic selection. That still leaves one the ability to deal with the actual information in a professional and honest manner.</p>
<p>Lincoln<br />
In terms of the examples I gave, my point was that the ideologies I outlined, as hateful as I may personally find them, are valid conclusions from the study of history. Just as science can only tell you what can be done and not what should be done, history can only tell us what people did and not what they should have done.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-32</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry to intrude (but not too sorry, obviously), but I couldn&#039;t help but note that even so basic an act as selecting a topic reveals our philosophical/cultural/theological/moral biases. We use the term &quot;emplot&quot; to describe the way in which historians choose which history to make salient and which to leave silent. By simply choosing to discuss topics like the Holocaust, fire-bombing, and slavery we have revealed something about our moral order before putting a single word on a page. The topics that we find &quot;big&quot; or &quot;important&quot; tell us much about ourselves and our ideological blinders.

So Izgad, I think that you are right to note that Christian historians are often going to write history that looks different from non-Christians. But the very act of selection requires the Christian historian to make choices based upon moral assumptions. The Christian historian cannot escape making &quot;moral and ethical judgements about the past.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to intrude (but not too sorry, obviously), but I couldn&#8217;t help but note that even so basic an act as selecting a topic reveals our philosophical/cultural/theological/moral biases. We use the term &#8220;emplot&#8221; to describe the way in which historians choose which history to make salient and which to leave silent. By simply choosing to discuss topics like the Holocaust, fire-bombing, and slavery we have revealed something about our moral order before putting a single word on a page. The topics that we find &#8220;big&#8221; or &#8220;important&#8221; tell us much about ourselves and our ideological blinders.</p>
<p>So Izgad, I think that you are right to note that Christian historians are often going to write history that looks different from non-Christians. But the very act of selection requires the Christian historian to make choices based upon moral assumptions. The Christian historian cannot escape making &#8220;moral and ethical judgements about the past.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Lincoln Mullen</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lincoln Mullen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-31</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Izgad,

Not to press the point, but each of the counter examples that you&#039;ve given is a moral judgment. If someone were to say (wrongly) that the Holocaust was a sacrifice to defeat Communism, then he would be making a moral judgment that defeating Communism was a greater good than killing the Jews. Concerning the firebombing and nuclear bombing of Japanese cities, one must make the moral judgment whether killing civilians was morally justifiable to end the war. Concerning slavery, your hypothetical argument is not so far from the actual arguments that slaveholders offered to justify slavery---moral arguments that slaveholders needed slaves to reach the heights of culture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Izgad,</p>
<p>Not to press the point, but each of the counter examples that you&#8217;ve given is a moral judgment. If someone were to say (wrongly) that the Holocaust was a sacrifice to defeat Communism, then he would be making a moral judgment that defeating Communism was a greater good than killing the Jews. Concerning the firebombing and nuclear bombing of Japanese cities, one must make the moral judgment whether killing civilians was morally justifiable to end the war. Concerning slavery, your hypothetical argument is not so far from the actual arguments that slaveholders offered to justify slavery&#8212;moral arguments that slaveholders needed slaves to reach the heights of culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Izgad</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Izgad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 09:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-30</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I grant you that it would have been better if I had said killed instead of murdered. That being said murdered does not have to have the negative moral connotations that it is usually given. I fail to see any inherent morality being played out in the Holocaust. One could learn about the Holocaust and come to the conclusion that the Nazis “murdering” millions of Jews was a necessary sacrifice to save civilization from Communism. Hitler, in his great “genius,” used Jews, a group that so many other groups hated, to rally the German people to his cause. And the Allies “murdered” hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians in order to bring about their surrender. Similarly one can study the history of American slavery and decide: “wasn’t slavery a great thing. I want to have some slaves do my work for me as I sit in the shade and drink mint juleps on my mansion.” Such views would be perfectly consistent with an accurate knowledge of history.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grant you that it would have been better if I had said killed instead of murdered. That being said murdered does not have to have the negative moral connotations that it is usually given. I fail to see any inherent morality being played out in the Holocaust. One could learn about the Holocaust and come to the conclusion that the Nazis “murdering” millions of Jews was a necessary sacrifice to save civilization from Communism. Hitler, in his great “genius,” used Jews, a group that so many other groups hated, to rally the German people to his cause. And the Allies “murdered” hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians in order to bring about their surrender. Similarly one can study the history of American slavery and decide: “wasn’t slavery a great thing. I want to have some slaves do my work for me as I sit in the shade and drink mint juleps on my mansion.” Such views would be perfectly consistent with an accurate knowledge of history.</p>
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		<title>By: Lincoln Mullen</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lincoln Mullen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 01:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-29</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A reader sent me an e-mail pointing out---quite correctly---that I had missed a step. In my post, I skipped from the Christian scholar thinking to calling him &quot;the Church Thinking&quot; without adequate justification. The reader framed the question very well: &quot;But how do we know that the Christian scholar&#039;s work is supposed to be part of his identity in the Church, and for the Church, rather than being incidental to the Church and being for humanity?&quot;

For some scholars, the connection can be clear. Theologians, some historians, some biologists, some educators, and the like can have a role of directly advancing the church&#039;s mission, by strengthening the faith and sharpening the knowledge of believers within the church, or by offering an apologetic to unbelievers. Here are two examples: the historian Mark Noll, besides writing histories of American religion, has also written a book titled &quot;The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind&quot;; the scientists at the Institute for Creation Research offer scientific defenses of creationism. I think such scholars in such roles can be described as the &quot;Church thinking.&quot;

But even such scholars do not spend all of their time in work directly related to the church, and such scholars are probably in the minority of all Christians in the academy. For Christian scholars generally, then, I think there is a different connection between the scholar and the church. First, there is the old Christian doctrine of vocation. Whatever a person&#039;s job may be, it is a holy vocation from God, and therefore fits into His purposes for the church, even if we don&#039;t know how. Second, one&#039;s Christianity ought to shape his work in every way. In my graduate history education, I&#039;m about to undergo a program of &quot;professionalization.&quot; If the advice books are to be believed, I&#039;m supposed to order my life and approach everything within my discipline as a professional historian. If one can conform his thinking to a professional identity, is it not reasonable to expect that he first conform his scholarship to his Christian identity? Third, as I understand the Scriptures, the church is intended to be a group of people who completely fulfill God&#039;s purposes for humanity. Even if their work doesn&#039;t have as obvious a connection to the church as, say, a theologian or a religious historian, it must please the Lord Jesus to have criminal lawyers, molecular biologists, plumbers, farmers, and secretaries doing their work as members of His church. To reverse the perspective, it does much to strengthen my faith that the Lord is working through His church to see that there are Christians as Christians filling every occupation.

I hope that&#039;s not just a collection of generalizations. To summarize, I think that Christian scholars can be termed the &quot;Church thinking&quot; because their work either advances the church&#039;s mission directly or because it makes the church beautiful by fulfilling Christ&#039;s desire to have an entire race and nation of redeemed people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A reader sent me an e-mail pointing out&#8212;quite correctly&#8212;that I had missed a step. In my post, I skipped from the Christian scholar thinking to calling him &#8220;the Church Thinking&#8221; without adequate justification. The reader framed the question very well: &#8220;But how do we know that the Christian scholar&#8217;s work is supposed to be part of his identity in the Church, and for the Church, rather than being incidental to the Church and being for humanity?&#8221;</p>
<p>For some scholars, the connection can be clear. Theologians, some historians, some biologists, some educators, and the like can have a role of directly advancing the church&#8217;s mission, by strengthening the faith and sharpening the knowledge of believers within the church, or by offering an apologetic to unbelievers. Here are two examples: the historian Mark Noll, besides writing histories of American religion, has also written a book titled &#8220;The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind&#8221;; the scientists at the Institute for Creation Research offer scientific defenses of creationism. I think such scholars in such roles can be described as the &#8220;Church thinking.&#8221;</p>
<p>But even such scholars do not spend all of their time in work directly related to the church, and such scholars are probably in the minority of all Christians in the academy. For Christian scholars generally, then, I think there is a different connection between the scholar and the church. First, there is the old Christian doctrine of vocation. Whatever a person&#8217;s job may be, it is a holy vocation from God, and therefore fits into His purposes for the church, even if we don&#8217;t know how. Second, one&#8217;s Christianity ought to shape his work in every way. In my graduate history education, I&#8217;m about to undergo a program of &#8220;professionalization.&#8221; If the advice books are to be believed, I&#8217;m supposed to order my life and approach everything within my discipline as a professional historian. If one can conform his thinking to a professional identity, is it not reasonable to expect that he first conform his scholarship to his Christian identity? Third, as I understand the Scriptures, the church is intended to be a group of people who completely fulfill God&#8217;s purposes for humanity. Even if their work doesn&#8217;t have as obvious a connection to the church as, say, a theologian or a religious historian, it must please the Lord Jesus to have criminal lawyers, molecular biologists, plumbers, farmers, and secretaries doing their work as members of His church. To reverse the perspective, it does much to strengthen my faith that the Lord is working through His church to see that there are Christians as Christians filling every occupation.</p>
<p>I hope that&#8217;s not just a collection of generalizations. To summarize, I think that Christian scholars can be termed the &#8220;Church thinking&#8221; because their work either advances the church&#8217;s mission directly or because it makes the church beautiful by fulfilling Christ&#8217;s desire to have an entire race and nation of redeemed people.</p>
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		<title>By: Lincoln Mullen</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lincoln Mullen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 01:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-28</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Izgad,

I agree that we &quot;need something else besides for history, like the belief in divine providence and judgment, to keep us grounded.&quot; But this belief brings with it a set of moral principles--because I believe this, then I (and others) must act in thus and so a way.

So certainly, history is an attempt to find out the who, what, when, where, how, and why. But all of that is imbued with morality. Take the example of the Shoah, which you mentioned. There is a story--a fact, if you&#039;d rather--full of morality: the immorality of the Nazis, the culpability of so many others, the suffering and bravery of the Jews, the righteous Gentiles, and so on. Even your simple, one phrase summary of that fact makes a moral judgment: the Nazis &lt;em&gt;murdered&lt;/em&gt; the Jews. We could multiply examples to find the implicit moral judgment in many histories. My point is simply that since human actions are moral, any good historian will take that into account in his history, and a Christian historian has a particular set of ethics which gives him a coherent way to approach morality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Izgad,</p>
<p>I agree that we &#8220;need something else besides for history, like the belief in divine providence and judgment, to keep us grounded.&#8221; But this belief brings with it a set of moral principles&#8211;because I believe this, then I (and others) must act in thus and so a way.</p>
<p>So certainly, history is an attempt to find out the who, what, when, where, how, and why. But all of that is imbued with morality. Take the example of the Shoah, which you mentioned. There is a story&#8211;a fact, if you&#8217;d rather&#8211;full of morality: the immorality of the Nazis, the culpability of so many others, the suffering and bravery of the Jews, the righteous Gentiles, and so on. Even your simple, one phrase summary of that fact makes a moral judgment: the Nazis <em>murdered</em> the Jews. We could multiply examples to find the implicit moral judgment in many histories. My point is simply that since human actions are moral, any good historian will take that into account in his history, and a Christian historian has a particular set of ethics which gives him a coherent way to approach morality.</p>
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		<title>By: Izgad</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Izgad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-27</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“The second principle that may be inferred is that a Christian historian is able to make moral and ethical judgments about the past.”
I fail to see what moral and ethical judgments have to do with history. As I see it, history is a study of who, what, when, where and an attempt at why. The American Colonies fighting the Revolutionary War against Great Britain fact. The Nazis murdering six million Jews is also a fact. History does not give me the tools to make judgments about these events. That is why I need something else besides for history, like the belief in divine providence and judgment, to keep us grounded.
I would see the role of a Christian historian in terms of what issues are focused on. A Christian history of the classical world is going to spend a lot more time talking about Judea and Josephus than it would talking about Athens and Thucydides. A Christian who does medieval history is going to be more interested in talking Peter Abelard, Thomas Aquinas and debates between the realists and nominalists than in gender or class structures in villages in southern France. Jewish, Muslim and Hindu historians would follow a similar model.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The second principle that may be inferred is that a Christian historian is able to make moral and ethical judgments about the past.”<br />
I fail to see what moral and ethical judgments have to do with history. As I see it, history is a study of who, what, when, where and an attempt at why. The American Colonies fighting the Revolutionary War against Great Britain fact. The Nazis murdering six million Jews is also a fact. History does not give me the tools to make judgments about these events. That is why I need something else besides for history, like the belief in divine providence and judgment, to keep us grounded.<br />
I would see the role of a Christian historian in terms of what issues are focused on. A Christian history of the classical world is going to spend a lot more time talking about Judea and Josephus than it would talking about Athens and Thucydides. A Christian who does medieval history is going to be more interested in talking Peter Abelard, Thomas Aquinas and debates between the realists and nominalists than in gender or class structures in villages in southern France. Jewish, Muslim and Hindu historians would follow a similar model.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2009/08/06/what-concord-is-there-between-the-academy-and-the-church-my-attempt-at-a-christian-philosophy-of-history/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 20:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=177#comment-26</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder if some of the confusion about causation stems from the assumption that causes must be more or less material. It seems that a Christian would assert both the relevance of human causation, but also the reality of divine (or demonic) causation. Though my observation doesn&#039;t solve the determinism problem, it may permit more options to draw from.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if some of the confusion about causation stems from the assumption that causes must be more or less material. It seems that a Christian would assert both the relevance of human causation, but also the reality of divine (or demonic) causation. Though my observation doesn&#8217;t solve the determinism problem, it may permit more options to draw from.</p>
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