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	<title>Comments on: Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman</title>
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	<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/</link>
	<description>A group blog about religion in America</description>
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		<title>By: John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Matzko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-98</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t have a clue what the words &quot;data points&quot; mean when discussing history. Do you mean &quot;facts&quot;?

You said above that &quot;further historical background will reveal different conclusions.&quot;  If it&#039;s true that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy, what different conclusions about that statement might be reached by investigating the historical background?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have a clue what the words &#8220;data points&#8221; mean when discussing history. Do you mean &#8220;facts&#8221;?</p>
<p>You said above that &#8220;further historical background will reveal different conclusions.&#8221;  If it&#8217;s true that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy, what different conclusions about that statement might be reached by investigating the historical background?</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-97</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seth R.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-97</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I said, that question is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I said nothing about whether specific data points were verifiable or not. My original argument applied only to CONCLUSIONS drawn from decontextualized data points. Sure it&#039;s reasonable for people to conclude that Joseph had at least a certain number of wives. And yes there are documented statements of denial. I wasn&#039;t talking about that to begin with. I was talking about where people then take those isolated data points.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said, that question is irrelevant to the point I was making.</p>
<p>I said nothing about whether specific data points were verifiable or not. My original argument applied only to CONCLUSIONS drawn from decontextualized data points. Sure it&#8217;s reasonable for people to conclude that Joseph had at least a certain number of wives. And yes there are documented statements of denial. I wasn&#8217;t talking about that to begin with. I was talking about where people then take those isolated data points.</p>
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		<title>By: John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Matzko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-96</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I simply asked if Brodie and Bushman are correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”? Can I state beyond reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I simply asked if Brodie and Bushman are correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”? Can I state beyond reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy?</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seth R.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-95</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the context of my earlier comment was clear enough and I don&#039;t think your remarks really address it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the context of my earlier comment was clear enough and I don&#8217;t think your remarks really address it.</p>
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		<title>By: John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-94</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Matzko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-94</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m implying nothing except that there are historical facts that we can know beyond reasonable doubt.  Are the biographers correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m implying nothing except that there are historical facts that we can know beyond reasonable doubt.  Are the biographers correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”?</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-93</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seth R.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-93</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, just a guess, but sounds like you are trying to imply meanings beyond the two bare data points you selected.

For example, is the audience supposed to take those two data points and say &quot;wow, what a sneaky, philandering, law-breaking scumbag&quot;?

Or are they supposed to reach some other conclusion. The way you selected the data points seems to imply that you&#039;d like a negative conclusion about Joseph Smith. And for an American audience lacking any historical context within which to place these data points, that may indeed be the rather ignorant conclusion reached. But a further historical background will reveal different conclusions.

So it&#039;s not so much particular data points and whether they are valid or not that my comment was aimed at. It is how opportunistic people take those isolated data points, and use the general ignorance of the audience to imply conclusions that are controversial at best.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, just a guess, but sounds like you are trying to imply meanings beyond the two bare data points you selected.</p>
<p>For example, is the audience supposed to take those two data points and say &#8220;wow, what a sneaky, philandering, law-breaking scumbag&#8221;?</p>
<p>Or are they supposed to reach some other conclusion. The way you selected the data points seems to imply that you&#8217;d like a negative conclusion about Joseph Smith. And for an American audience lacking any historical context within which to place these data points, that may indeed be the rather ignorant conclusion reached. But a further historical background will reveal different conclusions.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s not so much particular data points and whether they are valid or not that my comment was aimed at. It is how opportunistic people take those isolated data points, and use the general ignorance of the audience to imply conclusions that are controversial at best.</p>
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		<title>By: John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-92</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Matzko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 20:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-92</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seth, that sort of historical agnosticism would effectively render the study of history irrelevant.  No matter how many facts a historian gathered, you could continually argue that there was still &quot;plenty of room to say we don&#039;t know.&quot;   Both Brodie and Bushman agree that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while publicly and repeatedly claiming that he was not practicing polygamy.  Are the biographers correct or is there &quot;plenty of room to say we don&#039;t know&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, that sort of historical agnosticism would effectively render the study of history irrelevant.  No matter how many facts a historian gathered, you could continually argue that there was still &#8220;plenty of room to say we don&#8217;t know.&#8221;   Both Brodie and Bushman agree that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while publicly and repeatedly claiming that he was not practicing polygamy.  Are the biographers correct or is there &#8220;plenty of room to say we don&#8217;t know&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seth R.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-91</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, my point was not that we can&#039;t know anything.

My point was that a little humility about how much of a bead we&#039;ve got on historical characters is in order. I think my example of Cornelius Ryan illustrates that point. And this is doubly true of polarizing characters - where inevitably, the sources we do have will be highly agenda-driven. There is plenty of room to say we don&#039;t know in such instances.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my point was not that we can&#8217;t know anything.</p>
<p>My point was that a little humility about how much of a bead we&#8217;ve got on historical characters is in order. I think my example of Cornelius Ryan illustrates that point. And this is doubly true of polarizing characters &#8211; where inevitably, the sources we do have will be highly agenda-driven. There is plenty of room to say we don&#8217;t know in such instances.</p>
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		<title>By: Lincoln Mullen</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lincoln Mullen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-90</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Two responses, Seth. (1) Though it&#039;s true that historians have to rely on the sources that survive, you take this idea too far, almost to the point of denying that we can know anything true about the past. That is simply not true. Even in cases where the sources are thin, historians often do an amazing job reconstructing the past. In the case of Joseph Smith, there are &lt;a href=&quot;http://josephsmithpapers.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;plenty of sources&lt;/a&gt;. (2) I&#039;m not sure where you got the notion that we&#039;re ignorant of the history of the early republic. Are high school students ignorant? Probably, but they don&#039;t write biographies. I happen to be a graduate student studying the early republic and religion in particular, and I assure you that there is plenty to read.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two responses, Seth. (1) Though it&#8217;s true that historians have to rely on the sources that survive, you take this idea too far, almost to the point of denying that we can know anything true about the past. That is simply not true. Even in cases where the sources are thin, historians often do an amazing job reconstructing the past. In the case of Joseph Smith, there are <a href="http://josephsmithpapers.org/" rel="nofollow">plenty of sources</a>. (2) I&#8217;m not sure where you got the notion that we&#8217;re ignorant of the history of the early republic. Are high school students ignorant? Probably, but they don&#8217;t write biographies. I happen to be a graduate student studying the early republic and religion in particular, and I assure you that there is plenty to read.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-89</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seth R.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-89</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know about that. To an extent, I agree. I&#039;ve sometimes pointed out to Protestants in debates that unlike them, we haven&#039;t had the luxury of 2,000 years to clean up the images of our historical figures in a haze of increasing factual obscurity.

But don&#039;t underestimate the extent of what human beings do not know about even recent historical events. I just finished Cornelius Ryan&#039;s classic World War II book &quot;A Bridge Too Far.&quot; Amazing amount of research that he did on that book. The footnotes are staggering. Military inventories, records, interviews, newspaper accounts, diaries, and massive amounts of pouring through US, British and German military records. And Ryan flat-out admits to the vast amount of detail that we do not know about the disastrous Allied invasion of Holland. For all his research, some of the biggest controversies, and some of the most crucial explanations remain lost to us. Many of them in fact.

The more one learns, the more one realizes how much is NOT known.

This is the case with Joseph Smith. People uncover tidbits, and then brashly assume that they have an accurate picture of the man. The reality is that we don&#039;t really know. The truest part of Fawn Brodie&#039;s book was the title: &quot;No Man Knows My History.&quot; That really is true. People don&#039;t know him.

It doesn&#039;t help matters that Mormonism&#039;s founding history took place in one of the ugliest periods of US history. A time that most of America is trying hard to forget - that black hole in high school history books between the signing of the Bill of Rights and the Civil War. People in the United States are largely completely ignorant of this period of history. They fail to realize what a harsh, alien, and brutal time for our nation it was. They lack any sense of historical context with which to view the events of this time period.

And it is in this fog of ignorance that they study out the facts of Joseph Smith and the Mormons. In total isolation, they scrutinize the bare data surrounding the Mormon story, and then rise up in presentist indignation to pass judgment on the Mormon past by the values and assumptions of the 21st century. People just don&#039;t get how ugly America was during this period. Therefore they have absolutely no workable basis for judging how relatively praiseworthy or ugly the Mormon history is.

I could go into examples, but I see no need. Suffice it to say that I think the single biggest step in vindicating Joseph Smith and the Mormons, is merely to educate oneself in 19th century American history. Once you understand the national context, Joseph does alright for himself.

But understanding that context is something that will remain beyond the reach of most.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about that. To an extent, I agree. I&#8217;ve sometimes pointed out to Protestants in debates that unlike them, we haven&#8217;t had the luxury of 2,000 years to clean up the images of our historical figures in a haze of increasing factual obscurity.</p>
<p>But don&#8217;t underestimate the extent of what human beings do not know about even recent historical events. I just finished Cornelius Ryan&#8217;s classic World War II book &#8220;A Bridge Too Far.&#8221; Amazing amount of research that he did on that book. The footnotes are staggering. Military inventories, records, interviews, newspaper accounts, diaries, and massive amounts of pouring through US, British and German military records. And Ryan flat-out admits to the vast amount of detail that we do not know about the disastrous Allied invasion of Holland. For all his research, some of the biggest controversies, and some of the most crucial explanations remain lost to us. Many of them in fact.</p>
<p>The more one learns, the more one realizes how much is NOT known.</p>
<p>This is the case with Joseph Smith. People uncover tidbits, and then brashly assume that they have an accurate picture of the man. The reality is that we don&#8217;t really know. The truest part of Fawn Brodie&#8217;s book was the title: &#8220;No Man Knows My History.&#8221; That really is true. People don&#8217;t know him.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t help matters that Mormonism&#8217;s founding history took place in one of the ugliest periods of US history. A time that most of America is trying hard to forget &#8211; that black hole in high school history books between the signing of the Bill of Rights and the Civil War. People in the United States are largely completely ignorant of this period of history. They fail to realize what a harsh, alien, and brutal time for our nation it was. They lack any sense of historical context with which to view the events of this time period.</p>
<p>And it is in this fog of ignorance that they study out the facts of Joseph Smith and the Mormons. In total isolation, they scrutinize the bare data surrounding the Mormon story, and then rise up in presentist indignation to pass judgment on the Mormon past by the values and assumptions of the 21st century. People just don&#8217;t get how ugly America was during this period. Therefore they have absolutely no workable basis for judging how relatively praiseworthy or ugly the Mormon history is.</p>
<p>I could go into examples, but I see no need. Suffice it to say that I think the single biggest step in vindicating Joseph Smith and the Mormons, is merely to educate oneself in 19th century American history. Once you understand the national context, Joseph does alright for himself.</p>
<p>But understanding that context is something that will remain beyond the reach of most.</p>
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