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	<title>Comments for Religion in America</title>
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	<description>A collaborative exploration of the history of religion in America</description>
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		<title>Comment on The Protestant Deformation by Paul</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/10/the-protestant-deformation/#comment-189</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=330#comment-189</guid>
		<description>Lincoln, thanks for your reply. I do think that you are overly abstract in your discussion of the Halfway Covenant. Rather than thinking like an intellectual historian, try and look at the H.C. from the perspective of a lay congregant or parish pastor in colonial New England. The pastor is confronted by increasing numbers of parishioners who want their kids baptized so they could be full members of the community and have the right to vote (the propertied white men at least). The H.C. was not discussed in a theoretical vacuum. It was not a prima facie discussion of ecclesiology. Rather it came as a result of bottom-up pressure. The resulting compromise was as much political as theological. 

In Puritan New England where the institutions of church and state were intertwined, politics and theology were comingled. I doubt if the Puritan divines kept their political philosophy and their theology in separate mental boxes. 

Thus, I have to reject Morgan&#039;s analysis, that the H.C. was an &quot;attempt to rescue the concept of a church of visible saints from the tangle of problems created in time by human reproduction.&quot; Human reproduction may have been the proximate cause, but predicating citizenship upon church membership was the ultimate cause. So it was the Puritan&#039;s political philosophy that precipitated the controversy. 

I am not so sure about whether the H.C. was evidence of spiritual decline. But I am much more confident about arguing that the H.C. contributed to spiritual decline. The end result of the H.C. was to graft dead fruit into the Church. The covenant community was no longer limited to people who professed the covenant between man and God. Should we then be surprised when the body of Christ begins to whither?

Perhaps we should do a post on whether religion can be quantified...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lincoln, thanks for your reply. I do think that you are overly abstract in your discussion of the Halfway Covenant. Rather than thinking like an intellectual historian, try and look at the H.C. from the perspective of a lay congregant or parish pastor in colonial New England. The pastor is confronted by increasing numbers of parishioners who want their kids baptized so they could be full members of the community and have the right to vote (the propertied white men at least). The H.C. was not discussed in a theoretical vacuum. It was not a prima facie discussion of ecclesiology. Rather it came as a result of bottom-up pressure. The resulting compromise was as much political as theological. </p>
<p>In Puritan New England where the institutions of church and state were intertwined, politics and theology were comingled. I doubt if the Puritan divines kept their political philosophy and their theology in separate mental boxes. </p>
<p>Thus, I have to reject Morgan&#8217;s analysis, that the H.C. was an &#8220;attempt to rescue the concept of a church of visible saints from the tangle of problems created in time by human reproduction.&#8221; Human reproduction may have been the proximate cause, but predicating citizenship upon church membership was the ultimate cause. So it was the Puritan&#8217;s political philosophy that precipitated the controversy. </p>
<p>I am not so sure about whether the H.C. was evidence of spiritual decline. But I am much more confident about arguing that the H.C. contributed to spiritual decline. The end result of the H.C. was to graft dead fruit into the Church. The covenant community was no longer limited to people who professed the covenant between man and God. Should we then be surprised when the body of Christ begins to whither?</p>
<p>Perhaps we should do a post on whether religion can be quantified&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Protestant Deformation by Lincoln Mullen</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/10/the-protestant-deformation/#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator>Lincoln Mullen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 01:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=330#comment-187</guid>
		<description>I think our difference here runs deeper than the question whether Kurth&#039;s model is valid or not. You like theoretical models (and politics), and I don&#039;t have much use for either. But working out where we differ on this model can help expose our underlying approaches to history.

About the Halfway Covenant. Though it&#039;s a commonplace to take the Halfway Covenant as a sign of declension, I&#039;m not sure the case for that interpretation can be made unambiguously. I see the Halfway Covenant as the resolution of two tensions within the very specific dilemmas of Puritanism that was (1) congregational and (2) in early New England. The first dilemma was the problem of visible sainthood. The Anglican tradition out of which congregational Puritanism came held that everyone who was a part of the state was also a member of the national church. The purpose of the church was to bring salvation to the people who were under its care. Puritans, on the other hand, were moving to the idea that the church should be a body only of those who were &quot;visible saints,&quot; and especially that the sacrament of the Lord&#039;s Supper (but not baptism) should be given only to visible saints. At the same time, Puritans retained the idea that everyone should be members, and so they baptized infants. The dilemma came when children who were provisional members never came to the point of visible sainthood. Should they be offered the sacrament of the Lord&#039;s Supper? Should their children be baptized? The Halfway Covenant said no to the first question, but yes to the second. It was a compromise on the dilemma of visible sainthood. Halfway members (those who were baptized but not admitted to communion) would be permitted to have their children baptized, so that the children would not be cut off from the redemptive work of the church. But halfway members were not permitted to take communion, in order to preserve the idea of visible sainthood. Thus, the Halfway Covenant was not so much a &quot;grassroots pragmatic concession&quot; as an attempt to preserve the distinctive ecclesiology of Congregational Puritanism.

The second dilemma, which can be summarized more briefly, is that the franchise was tied to church membership. With declining numbers of full church members, the state was in danger, and the Halfway Covenant was an attempt to maintain the tie between church membership and political membership in a more workable way.

I&#039;m indebted here, even for the use of the word &lt;em&gt;dilemma&lt;/em&gt;, to Edmund Morgan&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Visible Saints: The History of a Puritan Idea&lt;/em&gt;. Let me quote from him: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;New England piety may have been declining, but the halfway covenant was &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; a symptom of decline. Rather it was an attempt to answer questions which neither English Puritans nor Separatists had had to face, questions which were created by New England&#039;s rigorous new conception of church membership . . . . The halfway covenant, I would maintain then, was neither a sign of decline in piety nor a betrayal of the standards of the founding fathers, but an honest attempt to rescue the concept of a church of visible saints from the tangle of problems created in time by human reproduction.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My point is not just that the facts don&#039;t fit Kurth&#039;s model. My point is that we don&#039;t need Kurth&#039;s model to interpret the facts.

Thanks for the correction about the relationship between evangelicals and &quot;In God We Trust.&quot; I had no idea that mainline Protestants in the 1950s were more responsible for that legislation than evangelicals. Since I&#039;m doing some work in that period this semester, that will help my conception of post--World War II religion.

You are right, of course, that I was too simplistic in suggesting that rising church membership refutes a declension model. I merely offer that piece of evidence as one of the very few quantifiable indicators of religion. No matter what indicator you look at---political influence of religion, pervasiveness of religious ideas---I think you&#039;ll find that it belies a simple declension model like Kurth&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think our difference here runs deeper than the question whether Kurth&#8217;s model is valid or not. You like theoretical models (and politics), and I don&#8217;t have much use for either. But working out where we differ on this model can help expose our underlying approaches to history.</p>
<p>About the Halfway Covenant. Though it&#8217;s a commonplace to take the Halfway Covenant as a sign of declension, I&#8217;m not sure the case for that interpretation can be made unambiguously. I see the Halfway Covenant as the resolution of two tensions within the very specific dilemmas of Puritanism that was (1) congregational and (2) in early New England. The first dilemma was the problem of visible sainthood. The Anglican tradition out of which congregational Puritanism came held that everyone who was a part of the state was also a member of the national church. The purpose of the church was to bring salvation to the people who were under its care. Puritans, on the other hand, were moving to the idea that the church should be a body only of those who were &#8220;visible saints,&#8221; and especially that the sacrament of the Lord&#8217;s Supper (but not baptism) should be given only to visible saints. At the same time, Puritans retained the idea that everyone should be members, and so they baptized infants. The dilemma came when children who were provisional members never came to the point of visible sainthood. Should they be offered the sacrament of the Lord&#8217;s Supper? Should their children be baptized? The Halfway Covenant said no to the first question, but yes to the second. It was a compromise on the dilemma of visible sainthood. Halfway members (those who were baptized but not admitted to communion) would be permitted to have their children baptized, so that the children would not be cut off from the redemptive work of the church. But halfway members were not permitted to take communion, in order to preserve the idea of visible sainthood. Thus, the Halfway Covenant was not so much a &#8220;grassroots pragmatic concession&#8221; as an attempt to preserve the distinctive ecclesiology of Congregational Puritanism.</p>
<p>The second dilemma, which can be summarized more briefly, is that the franchise was tied to church membership. With declining numbers of full church members, the state was in danger, and the Halfway Covenant was an attempt to maintain the tie between church membership and political membership in a more workable way.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m indebted here, even for the use of the word <em>dilemma</em>, to Edmund Morgan&#8217;s <em>Visible Saints: The History of a Puritan Idea</em>. Let me quote from him: </p>
<blockquote><p>New England piety may have been declining, but the halfway covenant was <em>not</em> a symptom of decline. Rather it was an attempt to answer questions which neither English Puritans nor Separatists had had to face, questions which were created by New England&#8217;s rigorous new conception of church membership . . . . The halfway covenant, I would maintain then, was neither a sign of decline in piety nor a betrayal of the standards of the founding fathers, but an honest attempt to rescue the concept of a church of visible saints from the tangle of problems created in time by human reproduction.</p></blockquote>
<p>My point is not just that the facts don&#8217;t fit Kurth&#8217;s model. My point is that we don&#8217;t need Kurth&#8217;s model to interpret the facts.</p>
<p>Thanks for the correction about the relationship between evangelicals and &#8220;In God We Trust.&#8221; I had no idea that mainline Protestants in the 1950s were more responsible for that legislation than evangelicals. Since I&#8217;m doing some work in that period this semester, that will help my conception of post&#8211;World War II religion.</p>
<p>You are right, of course, that I was too simplistic in suggesting that rising church membership refutes a declension model. I merely offer that piece of evidence as one of the very few quantifiable indicators of religion. No matter what indicator you look at&#8212;political influence of religion, pervasiveness of religious ideas&#8212;I think you&#8217;ll find that it belies a simple declension model like Kurth&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-186</link>
		<dc:creator>John Matzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-186</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have a clue what the words &quot;data points&quot; mean when discussing history. Do you mean &quot;facts&quot;? 

You said above that &quot;further historical background will reveal different conclusions.&quot;  If it&#039;s true that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy, what different conclusions about that statement might be reached by investigating the historical background?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have a clue what the words &#8220;data points&#8221; mean when discussing history. Do you mean &#8220;facts&#8221;? </p>
<p>You said above that &#8220;further historical background will reveal different conclusions.&#8221;  If it&#8217;s true that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy, what different conclusions about that statement might be reached by investigating the historical background?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-185</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-185</guid>
		<description>As I said, that question is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I said nothing about whether specific data points were verifiable or not. My original argument applied only to CONCLUSIONS drawn from decontextualized data points. Sure it&#039;s reasonable for people to conclude that Joseph had at least a certain number of wives. And yes there are documented statements of denial. I wasn&#039;t talking about that to begin with. I was talking about where people then take those isolated data points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said, that question is irrelevant to the point I was making.</p>
<p>I said nothing about whether specific data points were verifiable or not. My original argument applied only to CONCLUSIONS drawn from decontextualized data points. Sure it&#8217;s reasonable for people to conclude that Joseph had at least a certain number of wives. And yes there are documented statements of denial. I wasn&#8217;t talking about that to begin with. I was talking about where people then take those isolated data points.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-184</link>
		<dc:creator>John Matzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-184</guid>
		<description>I simply asked if Brodie and Bushman are correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”? Can I state beyond reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I simply asked if Brodie and Bushman are correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”? Can I state beyond reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while he publicly and repeatedly claimed that he was not practicing polygamy?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-183</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-183</guid>
		<description>I think the context of my earlier comment was clear enough and I don&#039;t think your remarks really address it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the context of my earlier comment was clear enough and I don&#8217;t think your remarks really address it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-182</link>
		<dc:creator>John Matzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-182</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m implying nothing except that there are historical facts that we can know beyond reasonable doubt.  Are the biographers correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m implying nothing except that there are historical facts that we can know beyond reasonable doubt.  Are the biographers correct, or is there “plenty of room to say we don’t know”?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-181</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-181</guid>
		<description>John, just a guess, but sounds like you are trying to imply meanings beyond the two bare data points you selected.

For example, is the audience supposed to take those two data points and say &quot;wow, what a sneaky, philandering, law-breaking scumbag&quot;?

Or are they supposed to reach some other conclusion. The way you selected the data points seems to imply that you&#039;d like a negative conclusion about Joseph Smith. And for an American audience lacking any historical context within which to place these data points, that may indeed be the rather ignorant conclusion reached. But a further historical background will reveal different conclusions.

So it&#039;s not so much particular data points and whether they are valid or not that my comment was aimed at. It is how opportunistic people take those isolated data points, and use the general ignorance of the audience to imply conclusions that are controversial at best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, just a guess, but sounds like you are trying to imply meanings beyond the two bare data points you selected.</p>
<p>For example, is the audience supposed to take those two data points and say &#8220;wow, what a sneaky, philandering, law-breaking scumbag&#8221;?</p>
<p>Or are they supposed to reach some other conclusion. The way you selected the data points seems to imply that you&#8217;d like a negative conclusion about Joseph Smith. And for an American audience lacking any historical context within which to place these data points, that may indeed be the rather ignorant conclusion reached. But a further historical background will reveal different conclusions.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s not so much particular data points and whether they are valid or not that my comment was aimed at. It is how opportunistic people take those isolated data points, and use the general ignorance of the audience to imply conclusions that are controversial at best.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by John Matzko</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-180</link>
		<dc:creator>John Matzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 20:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-180</guid>
		<description>Seth, that sort of historical agnosticism would effectively render the study of history irrelevant.  No matter how many facts a historian gathered, you could continually argue that there was still &quot;plenty of room to say we don&#039;t know.&quot;   Both Brodie and Bushman agree that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while publicly and repeatedly claiming that he was not practicing polygamy.  Are the biographers correct or is there &quot;plenty of room to say we don&#039;t know&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, that sort of historical agnosticism would effectively render the study of history irrelevant.  No matter how many facts a historian gathered, you could continually argue that there was still &#8220;plenty of room to say we don&#8217;t know.&#8221;   Both Brodie and Bushman agree that Joseph Smith married more than two dozen women while publicly and repeatedly claiming that he was not practicing polygamy.  Are the biographers correct or is there &#8220;plenty of room to say we don&#8217;t know&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing about the Supernatural; or, Fawn Brodie vs. Richard Bushman by Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://religioninamerica.org/2010/01/12/writing-about-the-supernatural-or-fawn-brodie-vs-richard-bushman/#comment-179</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://religioninamerica.org/?p=343#comment-179</guid>
		<description>Well, my point was not that we can&#039;t know anything.

My point was that a little humility about how much of a bead we&#039;ve got on historical characters is in order. I think my example of Cornelius Ryan illustrates that point. And this is doubly true of polarizing characters - where inevitably, the sources we do have will be highly agenda-driven. There is plenty of room to say we don&#039;t know in such instances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my point was not that we can&#8217;t know anything.</p>
<p>My point was that a little humility about how much of a bead we&#8217;ve got on historical characters is in order. I think my example of Cornelius Ryan illustrates that point. And this is doubly true of polarizing characters &#8211; where inevitably, the sources we do have will be highly agenda-driven. There is plenty of room to say we don&#8217;t know in such instances.</p>
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